Neurodiversity in Cybersecurity – Devin Nakano

0:12

Good morning. Welcome to the NeuroSec podcast where we unite people and organizations to support and advance Neurodiverse people in cybersecurity. My name is Nathan Chung, and today my special guest is Devin Nakano. He is co-founder and CISO of Authentikid, and he is also founder, President and Executive Director of Y STEM and Chess. Welcome Devin.

0:39

Thanks, Nathan. It's a pleasure to be here.

0:43

Ok, just to get started, have you watched the Queen's Gambit on Netflix?

0:49

No, I haven't. Honestly, I can't really afford Netflix at the moment. But I constantly get people every single day reaching out. It's like, hey, have you watched this yet? Have you watched this yet and say no, not quite. I hear it's really good, though.

1:04

Yep. It tells the fictional story of a young female chess prodigy who shows Autistic traits. That brings us to our next question, though. Tell me more about Y STEM and Chess. To my knowledge, it is the only program of its kind in the world. So can you tell me more about Y STEM and Chess.

1:25

Yes, indeed. So Y STEM and Chess is a nonprofit. We empower underserved children to pursue STEM careers in STEM professions. We teach children chess, math and computer science, to empower them to pursue STEM degrees in STEM professions using STEM professionals to support. We offer in person and remote classes. And through our program for the kids that can't afford them and readily need them. We offer Internet computers, mentoring, support and financial aid guidance to help them pursue their higher education goals, whether that be self study, or a college education.

2:09

Wow, that that is incredible. How did you come up with the idea?

2:14

te school three years ago, in: 2017

5:27

Wow, that is an incredible story, Devin. Incredible, especially since you were diagnosed back when you were three years old, and too achieve, all that. That is an incredible story.

5:43

It was and it's really based solely on the fact that my mother got me the right resources when I was very young, I wasn't. And I did not fall into the behaviors that many kids with Asperger's and Autism fall into. And I was able to get speech therapy and behavior therapy, and allowed me to to compensate for some of the deficits that many of our community face on a daily basis.

6:21

Yep, you are absolutely correct. From my view, especially support, especially, especially, especially at an early age, that is so critical, very critical.

6:32

It is it's, it's really a game changer. And the reality is that many of these resources are readily available through your local school districts. You just have to ask, you have to set up a meeting to get an IEP for your child an Individual Education Program. And through that assessment, you're able to get access to speech therapy, to behavior therapy, to private tutors, to equipmen. In my IEP, I was, uh, I was supposed to be gifted a computer for home use. I never actually got that computer. But in the IEP, it lists out pretty much everything that you have access to. And the reason I was so successful in high school is my IEP pretty much said that Devin can have anything that he wishes that will help him become a better student. So if I didn't like a class, I got out of that class and get placed into the class that I want. And if I didn't like the teacher, that we just didn't mesh very well. I got to choose my teacher, and so on and so forth. All those tools are readily available for parents, you just have to ask for them.

7:51

Wow, that is incredible. I think there's also a difference in world that what when I was growing up going to school, a lot of those resources just was not available and looking at things then and now. I think society and support is it's like night and day. There's much more support nowadays.

8:16

Yeah, there totally is. And we simply just understand a lot more of this developmental syndrome and disorder than we knew 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago. It's really scaled rapidly and our understanding, because now there's more research, there's more studies, there's more support that better understands children from a Neurodiverse background.

8:49

Excellent. Shifting gears a little when people hear of conditions such as Autism it usually carries a negative label of being broken or being defective. How did you overcome that stereotype and find success?

9:07

You know, most people don't even realize that I have Asperger's. Like there are minor tics that are apparent with children that have Asperger's and children that have Autism. They don't really like groups. They don't really like loud noises. They don't really like bright lights. If you don't, you know fall into those common issues. Also they usually have speech impediments to that if you don't, you know exude those, those categories that it doesn't really cross people's minds. Like most people who talk to me nowadays is like, wow, Devin, you have Asperger's? Like yeah, like I was a mess when I was younger. And and now it's like you can't even tell us like I had a lot of help. Like I had a private tutor. I had a speech therapist that I met once a week, I had a writing tutor. I had everything that I need to be successful to be where I am today. Through those resources.

10:12

Wonderful. And to think so often people have to wear masks because they're too ashamed or too shy to admit they have a Neurological condition such as Autism or ADHD. How do you feel about masks? You yourself, you're, you're openly Neurodiverse. But how do you feel about masks?

10:39

I think it's a coping mechanism. If you need it, please use it. Nowadays, it's becoming more accepted, and people understand it more. Especially when you're going into the bigger cities and more populated areas. It's a it's it's hard to hard to describe, and it's terrible that many of our community have to put on such a mask in order to get a job. In order to, you know, be successful. It's a it's part of our our stereotype that is holding us back.

11:25

Yep, I totally agree. Because one day, I hope for a world where people don't have to wear masks, and they can be free to be themselves.

11:34

Yes, indeed. And I was, and still am very proud to have Asperger's. Very proud to, to have this skill that allowed me to be successful, and allowed me to focus on things that some people did not, did not understand they're not interested in. It's a, it's really, really quite a powerful tool, when once you learn how to harness it, the ability to focus on whatever you're trying to focus, despite the fact that your brain might slip here and there. But that broad interests really prepared me for my current success of being interested, and chess and mathematics and STEMoverall, in athletics, and art. All those different things prepared me for for today, and I'm grateful for and I proudly say that I have Asperger's to anyone who asks, and I actually have put it on all of my resumes. Maybe that's possibly why I haven't gotten a job. But I was so proficient at my skill and skills that I simply just started my own company. And I started going and looking for clients that would pay me for my expertise.

12:54

That is amazing.

12:56

And, and really anyone can do that. It's getting easier and easier today to be able to start your own company to be able to go after and chase clients, you just have to figure out what's the best way? What is the best way for you to communicate and pursue your goals?

13:15

That that's a very good point. Based on the traits associated with Autism and ADHD, do you feel that entrepreneurship is a good job opportunity for people?

13:29

I think it's the best opportunity for our community, you have a rare skill set, whatever that skillset is and there are people out there that will pay you to perform that skillset. You just have to go out there and find them.

13:47

Yeah, that's a very good point. Because in the community, you don't hear people talking about it too much because they just assume like Autism equals broken and we should just like hide in the closet like, but it's very refreshing to hear entrepreneurship about your success as an entrepreneur. Incredible.

14:08

Yeah, I've been incredibly lucky, idolize sport. Again, my family valued education, hard work a lot. And those two fundamental skills are essential to being an entrepreneur. And many children that have Asperger's or Autism are on the spectrum. They have this innate will to be able to understand and learn a bunch of different topics because they find that of interest. That's pretty much what business is, is being able to understand and apply what you learn to be able to solve whatever problem they're trying to solve that day.

14:48

Yep, couldn't agree more. Shifting gears I personally feel that Neurodiverse Neurodiversity could be the key to encourage more women and othe disadvantaged groups into careers in cybersecurity. The traits often shown, allow many Neurodiverse people to potentially excel in technical position. Traits, such as attention, detail, hyper focus, and the ability to see that needle in the haystack where others would not, would miss. Do you agree?

15:23

Definitely that pattern recognition is so essential to cybersecurity, in being able to understand what what is happening in a log when you're investigating an incident. Where it is understanding a piece of malware that you're trying to reverse engineer, whether you're trying to pen test a network, where you have that experience in that perspective, to be able to understand the smallest detail that will allow you to get a foothold into a network, and eventually, exploit it and get root.

16:01

Yep, I totally agree with you there. So, which cyber jobs you feel would be best suited for the amazing people for the amazing people who are Neurodiverse?

16:11

You know, it depends significantly on your interests. I was an Eagle Scout and still am an Eagle Scout. So I geared towards the more leadership role type positions. I really enjoy strategy. I really enjoy building security programs, I really enjoy testing security programs. All those different jobs, it really just depends on what your interest is. Do. Are you focused on, you know, reverse engineering malware? Are you focused on investigating incidents? Are you focused on leadership and being able to communicate with your team and the C suite to better understand what the security posture is? There's so many different fields that whatever you're interested in, there is a job for you in cybersecurity.

17:05

Yep, I totally agree. I think looking back in my experience, one of the biggest hurdles is just getting the support. And number two, there's just so many jobs out there and cybersecurity is it's just hard to pick one.

17:20

Oh, no doubt. Yeah, that's a, that's a significant issue. But my my recommendation is just to pursue whatever you're interested in. Read whatever books that you find fascinating. And try a bunch of different things. Nowadays, there's all kinds of different online resources for you to pursue your education for free. Fexample, the local library, many local libraries have access to online books where you can download, you know, 10-15 different copies of these technical books that would be you know, $15, to $100, to buy in stores, and just read and just explore. And once you find something that you're super interested in, pursue that topic.

18:10

Yep. And it reminds me of that reminds me of that Shakira song, Try Everything. Because that is the advice I give to people myself, like, there's just so many different fields in cyber, but just try them and buying something that they like.

18:24

Exactly. It's a, it's an adventure. And the more exposure that you have to these individual topics, allow you to narrow your focus on what you actually want to pursue.

18:39

Yep. I totally agree with you, Devin. I think for some people, especially those who have never worked in cybersecurity before, they see so many obstacles, so many barriers to entry. It's like looking at this tall mountain. How? How can Neurodiverse people overcome those barriers?

18:59

Like I said, before entrepreneurship. I couldn't find a job after I finished graduate school because I didn't have any certifications. I didn't have any experience. I just went to my secretary of state and said, hey, I want to start a company, this is what's going to be called, and I paid my my $100 fee. Two three months after that, I got my first client, and then you know, a month after that, another one and another one and another one. And that is that is a clear path to getting that experience. Another one is volunteering for nonprofits, or really any company to, you know, build a secure network, to do a pen test, to do risk assessment and vulnerability assessment, build a security strategy. All these different experiences will allow you to show that you have the skills to be successful. And finally break your way into the infosec when it's so, so hard to get into, but you have to just follow what many in the infosec community did to get that first job. And it takes time. It's not something that you're going to easily pursue. If you are, you know, in high school, or in college right now you need to start preparing today to be successful and get that first job if you actually want to work for someone else.

20:33

Yep, I totally agree. And I really enjoyed that. You mentioned the volunteer work, because a lot of people these days, that just never comes up, about a pathway to get experience. And I totally agree about volunteering. Another issue I I hear a lot, especially for people applying for cyber jobs is when they see the job req, they just get so discouraged the because a lot of companies, they want to hire the perfect unicorn. Someone with 10-20 years experience with all the certifications on the planet. And this one a candidate to do everything under the sun, like that is insane.

21:14

They do but their job requirements are solely based on what the team is looking for. Even if you you know don't qualify for anything, apply. Qualify for one thing, apply, qualify for two things, five things 10 things just apply like this. If you don't get in, it's the same thing as not applying in the first place. So you might as well just apply. And really focus on getting that that experience by volunteering by doing some free work, or go the entrepreneurship route. Pick a name, file, with say your secretary of state and start pursuing clients. There are always people out there looking for security professionals to do work, especially with small and medium sized businesses.

22:06

Yep, I love it. I totally agree. I totally agree with you there. Having you being a very successful entrepreneur, I think that you are a really awesome role model for people. Because a lot of the topics we just talked about, this doesn't come up, is that people just don't see them as pathways. I think more needs to be done on that area as well, where people are made aware of these pathways.

22:31

Definitely. That's that's a huge issue. And one of the guiding principles of Y STEM Chess, is to be able to introduce kids to STEM fields. The best jobs in a world where you can build things and break things for a living, and a great living.

22:48

Yeah, even for myself, I remember growing up, I built my own computer. And I just enjoyed taking things apart. Now, putting these back together. Now that was harder.

22:57

Yeah, no doubt. It's always hard to put things back together. That's why I'm taking pictures and taking notes is so important.

23:05

Yes. Again, chess and stem. I want to get your insight. How does chess help people get into STEM careers, where's the connection?

23:21

s game that's been around for: 1000

25:02

Like That is incredible. And I think what amazes me that you made that connection. And out of all the params that I've heard about globally, I think you're the only one that that openly brought this connection together. And that makes you an innovator. And that makes it even more awesome.

25:20

Yeah, they're a lot of programs, you know, offer chess and offer the benefits of chess. There are no programs that actually connect chess, to mathematics to computer science.

25:32

Yep. Yep, I've noticed that. Yep. And let's go back to our next question. What message do you have for people who are Neurodiverse, and want to work in cybersecurity, but feel that the stigma of society telling them no, you're not good enough. No, you gotta do this instead, no. What messages do you have for them?

25:52

Don't listen to them and contact me instead. I will help you.

25:57

I love it. And what what do you think can be done to help Neurodiverse people get get the help they need in order to survive and thrive?

26:07

That's a that's a difficult question. I think it largely comes to to confidence and believe that you can succeed. Part of our introduction to lessons is repeating a mantra that includes I believe I achieve. Every single lesson, the start of the lesson, I believe, I achieve.

26:32

I love it. It's like reinforcing a positive message.

26:35

Mm hmm. And it's also priming their brain to believe that they can achieve.

26:42

Wonderful. And from your Y STEM in Chess program, can you share any success stories?

26:49

e. She started the program in: 2018

27:25

Wow, that is incredible.

27:28

Yes, indeed. And that's just one student. I have over 600 approaching 700 right now. And we are finishing up our website. Well, that will allow, remote tutoring, and chess and mentoring with a STEM professional, anywhere in the world.

27:46

Incredible. Because I strongly believe a prorgram such as yours, it should it should be spread globally. I really think it can help a lot of people.

27:56

It will slowly but surely, we're always looking for donations. We're always looking for STEM professionals who work with our students. There's plenty of opportunities for anyone to engage in our program. And if you're listening to this, and you have a child, please reach out. Let's get them into classes. We start with kids as young as five and a half. One of my best students, little Chinese boy, no more than three feet tall. Right now he's an absolute terror on the chessboard.

28:33

I think that is another area where you are to be praised that you're starting early, like where kids that are eager to learn at an earlier age, like that is incredible.

28:44

Yes, indeed, there's plenty of research that shows that having a mentor and having someone believe in you and being introduced to these topics, and a very young age increases their chances of being successful later in life, especially for young girls. There's research out there that says that, that girls start getting turned off of STEM by biases in their environment at age eight, at age eight, second to third grade.

29:18

Yep, I totally agree there that more has to be done, especially to help girls, especially those from disadvantaged minorities. It's it's truly almost it's almost like a tragedy how girls and some groups are just they don't have the advantage of anyone to advocate for them sometimes.

29:40

Yes, it's it's a tragedy. In reality. It's a national security threat. If we do not have the staff to guard our systems against nation states. We are going to be in trouble especially with the advent and how China is readilly preparing AI, like we need people to fill STEM jobs, to be able to defend systems to be able to break systems in order to defend them, in order to build new technologies in order to build new methods, and tactics, all these different jobs have a readily apparent national security threat. And we simply are not filling up enough jobs, because we are still thinking the same way that we've been thinking for life that we don't actually engage underserved communities, immigrants, refugees, low income, the families of foster kids, orphans, adopted children, parents with a with addiction issues, parents in and out of jail. All these children have the ability to be successful in STEM. And all starts with one mentor, and one teacher that shows them what they can be. That tells them that if you work hard, and you believe that you can achieve, your potential is limitless.

31:09

I love it. Thank you for everything you do Devin, it's icredible.

31:13

It's a it's a wonderful, wonderful job that I really have started. And it all started at three years old. When my mom says like, no, I don't believe you. My son can do anything that he wants to do, I'm going to make sure that he is in the right position in order to do so. Wow. It sounds like you owe a lot to your parents, and especially your mom like that support is so critical at an early age.

31:41

It is we don't realize how critical it is when we're coming from middle class backgrounds and upper middle class and wealthy families of how different it is growing up, where you're constantly being told that you can do this, that you can do this, that you can do this. Many families and many of the children that we face, they don't hear that on a daily basis, if at all.

32:08

I think there's also a cultural piece as well, where this is like we're both Asian and sometimes in Asian families, especially traditional Asian families, there is a stigma where being Neurodiverse or having anything negative to do with the family is often frowned upon and people just are just uncomfortable to talk about issues.

32:34

You know, I am another exception, where my Asian family readily supported me. Very, very young. Were my English Caucasian family. However, I really struggled in believing that I could be something more other than my diagnosis.

32:56

Yep. Because the cultural and family piece that that's another area which is not often discussed, because I just watched a short film from a film festival called Laundromat, where the filmmaker went through all these issues where they just couldn't talk about any family issues or even talk directly with their parents about their mental health struggles because it was seen as a shame.

33:23

It is. But some of that is, is cultural. We have to be able to go out and look for the support that you need. Don't be afraid to ask for help. Your teachers are there to support and support your student. You simply just have to ask.

33:41

Yeah, totally agree there. Okay, again, we're about all the time again, Devin, thank you for everything you do for for the kids and the Neurodiverse community. You are an awesome role model. And your accomplishments will shine the light for a lot of people for generations to come. Thank you.

34:00

I sure hope so. You can reach me on LinkedIn. Send me an email at Devin at Y STEM Chess dot com. If you're interested in getting help for your child, who's recently being diagnosed, if you're interested in getting help for yourself breaking into cybersecurity, please reach out, I am here to support you. That is my life's mission is to help protect and teach other people.

34:24

Wonderful. Thank you again. Thank you again, Devin. Have a great day.

34:28

Thank you Have a great day. Bye