Neurodiversity in Cybersecurity - Female Hacker

0:11

Okay, welcome to the NeuroSec podcast where we unite people and organizations to support and advance Neurodiverse people in Cybersecurity and beyond. My name is Nathan Chung. And today, my special guest is an amazing Neurodiverse young woman hacker who is graduating next year from school. She was comfortable disclosing her real name. So, today's session we will address her as Casey. Welcome on the show, Casey.

0:39

Hi. Thank you for having me, Nathan.

0:42

Yeah, so, first area, first topic I want to dive into. With your upcoming graduation early next year. Can you describe what it's like learning cybersecurity in in college today as a Neurodiverse student?

0:57

Well, I actually started, I wasn't, you know, in cybersecurity at first. I actually. My parents wanted me to be a doctor.

1:09

Very common.

1:10

, maybe, like, I guess, like,: 2000

2:20

Yeah, it does. So it is a common perception that it is hard or difficult to encourage female students in school to pursue STEM careers, such as tech or cybersecurity. In school, did you feel encouraged or discouraged to learn cybersecurity?

2:42

I felt more encouraged than anything.

2:44

Um, you know, it's funny that you brought that up, because when I went to school, okay, like, they tried everything in their mind to get girls to study anything in STEM, anything. But I remember sitting in class, and like, after we took like, our first exam, and like the professor kind of like, handed it back. I asked the girl like, hey, you know, what did you get? And then she told me like, oh, I got like, it was like, 75%. And she's like, I can't, like, I can't like do this anymore. Like, you know, STEM isn't for me. Maybe I should just like switch like English or something. And I'm looking over at like this, dude, I asked him what he got. Because yeah, I got like a 60. I'm like, I'm the boss, you know? So it's really interesting. How like, it's like the persistence. It's not necessarily like, the encouragement, you can you can lead, you know, a horse to, like the pond and it won't drink, right?

3:36

So, yes, yes. Very true. Yeah. And did you feel that the teacher, teachers and fellow students, were comfortable with you as being a woman studying a STEM career?

4:01

Yeah, I didn't really have anyone telling me like, oh, you're a chick, you can't study like STEM or whatever. You know, I never had that problem. Um, I think I had more problems with it when one of my professors, not cyber, but like, I guess, like in biology, when she figured out I was like, Autistic, and I had ADHD. So yeah, like this lady. professor told me that I didn't have like, the mental capacity for it. And she kind of encouraged me to drop out. And it really sucked because I looked up to her, right, but I didn't. I switched and I did something much harder. So whatever. Yeah.

4:51

Unfortunately, that kind of thing. It still happens today, but it sounds like it actually empowered you, which is really good.

4:58

Yeah, you know, like

5:01

Life is not necessarily like what happens to you. It's how you react to it. So I, whenever people told me I can't do something, I'm always like, okay, that's cool.

5:14

Awesome, awesome attitude. And do you feel that your school provided enough training and hands on experience for you to actually to get to get an actual cyber job after you graduate?

5:27

You know what? Yeah, they, it sucks because like, I kind of started online. But they really do try their best to like, send me resources a lot. Lots of labs, networking opportunities. And, yeah, I feel like the cyber community is doing their absolute best to encourage women, spread awareness, and all that. So there's that. Yeah.

6:01

Yeah. Because I remember when I was going to school, it was so different. Like back then cybersecurity wasn't that big. And there were still there just starting to use Windows. Times have changed. It's like nowadays in schools, like coding is mandatory. Like, wow.

6:19

it's true. I think this other you know, my, one of my other like, I guess, co worker, she is also in cybersecurity. And she told me, like, in her coding class, there's a lot of journalism students.

6:37

Wow. Really?

6:38

Because they were like. Oh, if we can't get a job as a journalist. Maybe we can just be like, oh, like, web developers or something.

6:45

Interesting. Shifting gears to cybersecurity, can you share the challenges you've faced being Neurodiverse, and how you overcame them?

7:01

Our workplace, and I guess, it's tough, because I don't, you know, being someone with Asperger's, it's really tough to read social cues.

7:15

Yes, it is.

7:17

Especially, especially remote work, you know, like, I can't tell if someone's mad at me, especially with like, you know, on teams or something, or, I don't know, what exactly is considered, like, inappropriate or rude. Because, you know, they, I have a feeling that some people think I'm maybe a little too blunt. You know, like, when something's wrong, there's like, there's like a part of me that wants to correct them. And I have to like, not correct them, you know, because I don't want to make any enemies. It's very political in the workplace.

7:55

Yes.

7:56

So it's really tough for an Aspie, right.

7:59

Yep. Yeah, definitely is. But being Neurodiverse also gives you an advantage. It's almost like a superpower. How do you use that to your advantage to excel at your job?

8:15

Ah, yeah, so I guess the truth always prevails, right? When it's tough for me to kind of like confront someone and say, like, Hey, this is wrong. And then, you know, I probably get lip for it. But then usually, like, after like, a week or two, they realize like, okay, like, you're right kind of thing. Or like it's okay. Like, I, I take things like very for face value. Like, we don't really get emotional in our responses, right. And then we don't really hold it against them. So I guess that's one another thing is like, we're always honest, it's hard for us to lie. So, um, you know, my, my coworker, my boss always comes to me whenever, you know, they want to run an idea. And then like, I would just, like, encourage them. And I would actually tell them if it's a bad idea. I have like, attention to details. And I don't necessarily like talk a lot when someone's presenting if that makes sense. Like I I can I try to look outside of the picture, like the picture and like look at the grand scheme of things. And I'll ask then, if that makes sense.

9:32

Oh, yes, yes. Yes. That's pretty good. And why why hacking out of all those security jobs. What makes you more interested in pentesting slash hacking?

9:44

Um, I've always liked solving puzzles. Like I believe that in life, like, there's like creators, destroyers, and fixers, right. So people who create there tend to be like programmers. Like organic chemists, they're creators, they just like find pathways. Right? Um, hackers there are more of like the breakers in a sense that they think differently than the normal person. And I feel that, you know, I, I am like an Aspie I think different than other people, but I also, I feel like having like a diverse like background like living in LA kind of thing that, like helps me think differently, if that makes sense. Like my friend, he's a teacher, and he's like, oh, I didn't understand how like these students can cheat. But yeah, like, but it takes a cheater to like, know how a cheater would cheat, right?

10:48

Yes.

10:49

Yeah. So I that's why I picked it. And, you know, I like a challenge. I like pulling my hair out.

10:56

Because many women today would not choose as a career in cybersecurity much less hacking because they, there is a perception out there that a typical hacker is usually a white male wearing a hoodie. But how do you feel about that? Does that discourage you?

11:13

You know? I don't care about those things. Um, it's funny how like how shallow that like. I don't know. Like, if if someone like said that to me, I'd be like, really? I'm not that shallow. Like, okay, like, look at this person. Like, you have to look like this person to do this job. Like, no, there's there's much more beyond that. Right? Like, for example, I like Nikola Tesla. And I like him because he's crazy. I didn't like him, because he's like, a genius kind of thing. But I feel like it all comes down to like, facing your fears. Like, for example, I can show someone like a line of code, and then they'll be really scared. Like, why is it popping up on my screen? I've gotten hacked, right? But then if you really sit down and you think about it, and you kind of understand it, you wouldn't be so scared of it anymore. And you can realize that you can do it. So I feel like I feel like a dude, in a sense, like they're like, like, from my previous answer with the whole, like, testing where he got 60% I feel like they're not afraid of failure. They're not afraid of like, you know, those things. Girls are more of like a perfectionist, they feel like they have to understand and get everything, which is why right like, which is why it's good to push them or like try to encourage them to get into like, detailed oriented, like subjects or profession like cybersecurity, but it's just something that we have to overcome, if that makes sense.

13:05

Yes, yes, indeed. Yeah. I think I think there's also a cultural component as well. So since we're both Asians, it reminds me of a short film, I just watched called Laundromat where, where the producer talked about her difficulties, trying to try to survive in her Asian culture where you gotta make the parents look good. You got to become like a doctor and make a tons of money and marry rich and essentially, like, follow the family family line and bring honor to the family at the expense of your own happiness. This unfortunately leads to high rates of mental illness and suicide, especially for Asian women.

13:46

Oh, yeah.

13:47

Further in Asian cultures, on top of that there are other issues where you just can't talk about these issues, even among your own family members. That short film really hit home for me personally, because I feel that being Neurodiverse makes it even harder to it's like it just adds to this plate of all these issues. Feel the same?

14:09

Yeah, man.

14:10

I want to like, to your non Asian listeners. Like I don't think you guys understand how like, oh, when we say Tiger mom, we mean like Tiger mom okay. L:ike Asian parents are crazy. Well, the moms are crazy. Like, like it's funny how people will tell me like oh, yeah, like Asian family. Like it's all about the dude. It's kinda true like the boys like pass on the family name. But the women like they keep stuff together.

14:46

There is truth to that.

14:47

Yeah, right.

14:49

There is definitely truth to that.

14:50

They teach their kids everything.

14:52

Because to be honest, when you look at that, I think about there aren't too many Asian women in cyber like, is it me or do you notice that to you?

14:59

Yeah, I mean, um, it's interesting because if you look at like the statistics in, in like Korea, Japan, China and all that. They're actually there's, there's like a good amount of women in STEM. But I think in Korea, there's more women in cyber. I feel like it's so new. It's like kind of catching on, if that makes sense.

15:25

I think girls like they follow the rules. Have you ever thought about that? I feel like girls follow the rules, they're perfectionist and like they don't really, they think hacking is like something bad, you know? So they don't want to do it.

15:38

That's a very interesting viewpoint. I think there's truth to that. I think that's part of the reason why some girls don't want to go into hacking is like, they're afraid of breaking things.

15:48

Yeah, exactly.

15:50

They're like, oh, I can't break in. No, like, why why would I do that kind of thing. But yeah, I don't know. Like, I guess. I guess there's also like, the component of it. That's just like, it is really hard to encourage, like girls to get into cyber, especially at a young age. Yeah, because it's scary. Like, I remember being like, in middle school and high school, like if I saw something sketchy, just like, I didn't want to deal with it, you know, but then a lot of girls back then they're more interested in doing like, they're seeing or, you know, like, something glamorous.

16:32

Yeah, the traditional careers.

16:34

Yeah. But I feel like it's gonna change soon. I'm sorry, I didn't answer your like Asian question. Most Asian parents want: doctor, lawyer, engineer.

16:50

Yes.

16:50

What else? Is that it: doctor, lawyer, engineer. That's it.

16:57

Essentially, the higher the higher the pay the better.

17:01

Yeah, there has to be like prestige. And then what else to say? They they're so committed to their kids succeeding, that they put their kids into cram school.

17:15

Yes.

17:16

Essentially, you go to school from like, 8am to 3pm. And then right after that, you get sent to cram school to like 9pm.

17:25

Ouch.

17:26

Yeah.

17:26

When do you get time to have fun?

17:29

Yeah, you can't. It's mostly like it's mostly academic. This is like in middle school would be doing like calculus already. Yeah.

17:40

Wow.

17:43

So yeah, like me. It's, it's tough. It's tough, especially if you have Asperger's or like, Autism, with an Asian family, because they don't know what that is. Like, my parents were like, oh, no, my daughter is normal. How dare you say that, she's normal.

17:58

Exactly. Yeah, it's why like, Neurodiversity is. in our society. In our society there's still a stigma, but even worse yet in Asian families it's like taboo, like we cannot talk about this. There's nothing wrong with you. And if there is, it's not my fault.

18:18

They'll pit families against each other, like your cousins. You know, there'll be like hey look at your cousin. She went to Harvard. Like, what? I don't care. What if I don't want to go to college?

18:29

Yeah, exactly. It comes down to the right to choose what you want to do and to be happy.

18:35

Mm hmm. Oh, yeah. It reminds me of my quote from my family. It said I'm sure. I don't know if I'm gonna say this right on the first try. It's like, you do what you have to do. And if you love it along the way, that's the present.

18:52

Ah, I can see that. Yeah.

18:56

Yeah.

18:57

I personally feel that Neurodiversity could also be the key to encourage more girls into STEM and cyber. Because the, the traits often shown by Neurodiverse people. It makes them like, almost super like, such as attention to detail, hyper focus, the ability to find a needle in a haystack. Do you agree?

19:21

Yeah, they like very tedious tasks. We don't care kind of thing. I don't know so much about like that, and girls per se, because I heard that. Let's see, there are more boys diagnosed with Autism. Oh, are you do you mean, like Neurodiversity in general?

19:49

Yeah, Neurodiversity with Autism and that encompasses ADHD and Autism.

19:54

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I feel like there are more males kind of diagnosed with it. But then I think that's changing now so yeah, yeah. If that makes sense, right? Because more, if a girl is like Autistic or ADHD, she will have like, the right, like characteristics, like you, you would need to like do the job. I don't know. Yeah, I agree with you.

20:25

You know what? You're also right that the typical profile of people who are Neurodiverse typically are white and people have a younger age like say kids. So people who are older, older and non white. They, especially for girls and young women, they fall under the radar. They have it and often don't get diagnosed, which is really sad. And they suffered through depression and whatnot thinking: what's wrong with me?

20:59

Yeah, for a person with ADHD and like Asperger's and stuff. I don't know if you've had this like experience as well. Have you ever met someone and just, you were just like, kay, this person's definitely an Aspie?

21:18

Yes, definitely.

21:22

I've had a lot of those, it's like, you probably get like, you're laughing at my jokes. Like, ask. But uh, yeah, like, I know, a lot of those people, they're just kind of lost. They feel like they're usually the lone wolves.

21:41

Yes.

21:41

Yeah.

21:42

And I think that's why being Neurodiverse. It's, it's, it gets a negative label and you hear things like freak or loners. Like, it's a really negative label society put put on people. And that's sad, because so many people, so many people are Neurodiverse, they have so many gifts to bring to the table.

22:05

They do. It's just so funny that like, this is one of my pet peeves, man, I gotta work right. And they always talk about it, you have to be accepting of other people. You got to like, you know, like, you gotta, you know, you got to understand their whatever. And then like, someone says something I know, this guy's like, an Aspie, too. Because we get along, right? And then like, we talked about it and stuff. And then like, he would say something and everyone's like, what the heck, like, you know, like. Why would you say that? Oh, yeah, I understand. Like, ask these like, sometimes they don't think it's that bad. You know, like, for example, have you ever seen the the the clip of Bobby Fischer playing? No, during the interview with 60 minutes? 60 minutes?

22:54

No.

22:57

So like the narrator's like, yeah, Bobby, is he so? ruthless? He's arrogant and blah, blah, blah. And they, I think they asked him a question about how is he like, so good. I guess like, there's like a gift there. If I'm, if I'm winning this much. There must be a skill, right?

23:18

Yeah.

23:19

And when you hear it, like as an Aspie, you're just like, yeah, he's right, right. I don't think he's cocky. When everyone else around him is like, super judgmental. There's like, screw this guy. He's arrogant. I'm sitting here like, you know, it's been spitting facts out for the last 10 minutes. Yeah, I don't know what your problem is?

23:42

Yeah, people who are Neurodiverse, they did tend to have really good memory and just spit out numbers and facts like there's no tomorrow. Wow.

23:51

Yeah.

23:52

That, that. This leads us to our next question. in cyber, which cyber jobs do you think are best suited for people who are Neurodiverse?

24:05

Let's see.

24:07

Because I often hear hackers come to mind.

24:10

Oh, anything except for like, awareness, like anything and awareness, I don't think would be good for. Like, I'm honestly Nathan. I'm really proud of you, man, that you're like, you have a podcast and you're raising awareness as a Neurodiverse person.

24:31

Thanks.

24:32

Because like, I don't think any of my friends can do that. They'd be scared easily. Most of them are like behind the scenes are just like, okay, you do the talking. I'm just gonna sit over here and do like most of the like the detailed work. But pentesting hacking would be one like risk and compliance. It could be really good for them too, because you know, they kind of read everything are detail oriented. But I would say something like really technical would be good for a Neurodiverse person.

25:04

On the flip side. I also heard from a lot of experts in Neurodiversity and Autism that they feel concerned that a lot of people who are Neurodiverse are often pigeonholed into tech and cyber careers, which feels wrong. And the field should be opened up to other fields like art, or communications or writing lik. How do you feel about that? Because I think they make a valid point because if a person's creative. It should not be automatically thought of as oh they should go into cyber or a tech job.

25:40

So are they trying to. They're trying to diversify other fields so that cyber security can be more diverse to Neurotypical people? Is that what I'm hearing? Oh, my God, the world's gone insane. Okay. Oh, I don't know, man. Like, certain people are good at certain things. That's just how it is like.

26:02

You know what, I agree with that. Because quite simply, like when I was growing up, in Hawaii, there wasn't too many options. It was either government or tourism. So my options were quite limited. But I strongly believe in what those experts are saying. Because ideally, people should have the choice to pursue their passion then find what sticks. If it's not tech or cyber? That's, that's fine.

26:29

Yeah. I mean, we have the freedom to choose. It's not like someone's going out there. Like, it's not like we live in medieval freakin Europe, where like, your last name is like Smithson or something. And like, you have to be like, you know, a blacksmith, right? You have the choice to pick. So I don't know, I think. I think if they get into IT, and then like later on, realize you don't like IT. It's not like because they got pigeonholed. They kind of chose it, right? So you can always switch. That's what is so great about, you know, where we live in that right now.

27:11

That's true.

27:12

Right?

27:13

And shifting back to hacking. So since you're a real hacker, what, what do you like to hack the most web applications or just normal pentesting?

27:25

Oh, you know, I like. I started learning on like, like hacking networks. And then I looked into, like Wi-Fi for a little bit. That's how I started. But then I realized, like, since I know a little bit of coding, I could do like web applications. So I kind of do that now.

27:49

Nice. It's pretty good. You get to do bug bounties to make a little extra money.

27:56

Yeah, that's the goal. That's the goal. I want to live somewhere secluded and not like crowded, you know? Yeah, I'm sure you understand. You're an Aspie. You don't like noise.

28:07

Yes, definitely. But also the for hacking. There are some people who feel that like girls and women should not be hackers at all, like, Oh, the opinion of some people is that girls and women should not be doing technical careers. They should be like stay at home and just do a traditional job like nursing. Like, I don't want to get too political but people in demographics from traditional religious background, they feel that way. But how do you feel?

28:42

How do I feel about it? See my mom. She really wishes I was more traditional as well.

28:53

Let's see.

28:56

So you're asking me how I feel about people trying to force girls into more traditional roles.

29:04

Yes.

29:05

And.

29:07

And out of STEM careers, how you do feel about that?

29:11

f women inventors in the late: 1800

29:41

And that kind of badassery that I really admire that. A lot people like that. Who don't care what people think, they just do it, and kick serious.

29:51

Yup. And then they just become rich and they're like, what, what will you say about it right?

29:56

e, you're not gonna get like,: 5050

30:40

Yes its very hard.

30:42

So, um, I think, even though there were fewer women back in the day, those women were of quality. Right? They were badass, they made the history.

30:57

Yes.

30:58

But then now it's like, you know, like, I it's just a numbers game. And, and that doesn't sit right with me that they can use girls as like a token. I don't like being a frickin token.

31:14

Yeah, that's a good point. You know, the other. The other part is, I think you brought up a very good point. Because with this, all these huge pushes to get more girls in cybersecurity. There's been so many initiatives and lack of a better term, it just feels like someone who may even be forced into cyber, which I think is wrong, because ultimately, girls, especially when young, they should have the choice.

31:42

Yeah, exactly. Like, okay, so I used to, I'm gonna tell you a story. Like I used to tutor STEM. At like a local, I want to say homeless shelter. But it was, you know, a group home, right. And there was this girl there. And I was teaching her STEM, you know, like, I was teaching, actually, he was math. And, you know, she was usually good at it. Very bright girl. And I asked her, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And she's like, I'm a scientist. Like, what kind of scientist. She's like, okay, like, like, honestly, I want to be an artist, but I didn't want to let like, I didn't want you to be disappointed in me. See, why would I be disappointed? You can do whatever you want, like, what do you want to be? And she's like an artist. You know, like, artists, like, they can make a lot of money too, especially like social media and all that. And she's like, really?

32:37

That's a good point.

32:38

You know, like, I don't want to force you into it. I just want to introduce you see, like, see, I want to tell you like, I want to show you how good you are at math. And maybe if you like really like it, you would consider it. I don't want you to force you and push you into that direction. Like, you know,

32:55

Because the way I see it, in an ideal world, people should be exposed, like, dip your feet in the water. Try it out.

33:02

Mm hmm.

33:03

And then see what see what sticks.

33:05

Mm hmm. Yeah.

33:08

So shifting gears, can you share any personal stories of anything where you struggled being Neurodiverse and how you overcame them?

33:19

Um, I think I already mentioned how, like, sometimes I get too honest. And then like, I don't realize it's like politically incorrect or whatever. And it's, it's, it's not even. There's like new rules. Sometimes they make new rules. And I'm like, but why? I don't understand. I just don't understand. And then like, you know, when I ask the question, there's like, are you like, are you against it Like, I'm not against it? I'm just curious, like, about your logic. And sometimes they can't really give me a logic because, you know, a lot of them were kind of nervous about it, right?

34:01

Yes.

34:03

Let's see. Another tough one. Is that we're not very good at I guess, social interaction.

34:15

Oh yeah, definetely true.

34:21

Talk about like, hey, guys, like I got this, like, encyclopedia. They don't think it's interesting. But then, like, my co workers would talk about like, you know, they're expensive dinners or something and I don't care. Right, like yeah, that's tough. I, I try to I either, like, keep my mouth shut. Or sometimes I would tell them like, hey, I'm so sorry. Like I I said that. Like, if you if it offends you, then I won't, you know, say it but actually, I would tell them I have Asperger's then they'll kind of be more lenient on me. If that makes sense.

34:58

You know that you have a good point. So, when you tell people, you have Asperger. Does it change the relationship? Like does it feel? Does it make them weird?

35:08

You know, some of them think, like, they feel I've gotten all sorts of reactions. One of them is like, oh my gosh, like, I'm so you know, like in their head, I can see like, I'm so sorry, right? Why are you sorry? It's awesome. I like having I like having Autism. I've gotten this one lady. Actually, I told her during an interview, I say, like, I just said something like. Oh, you know, since I have Asperger's, I have attention to detail. And I connect things like much quicker than, like, normal people, right? And then she's like, hey, just to let you know, you shouldn't disclose that. Because, you know, a lot of employers, they, they don't like, they don't like that. And they would throw away your application right away. And I was like, what. Yeah, like people, you know, people discriminate, and I'm like, wow, I had no idea. I always thought, like, you know, we're normal, but we're just like, a little different.

36:19

Yeah, you brought up a good point because I have some other friends in cyber. They tell me the same thing. It's like, being Neurodiverse, there's still a stigma. It's like a negative. It's, it's sad. Because I still hope for a day where we can just be ourselves. And ideally, we should all be respecting each other's differences. Neurodiverse, Neurotypical, or, however different we are, we should all like, respect each other.

36:46

Exactly. I, you know, um, I had a I had a friend who this is really sad. Okay, so I had a friend who, like, he was just, he was like, Aspie humor. He's a little awkward, right? And then he, if you're nice to him, which is kind of like, oh, like, this person is nice, me, I'll hang out with this person, right? Like, I do that too. Right? And I guess he, he, he, he wanted to befriend more people at work. And this girl kind of took it the wrong way. But she thought he was like creeping on her and stuff. For like, I, to me as an Aspie. I was like, oh, he's, he's being an Aspie dude, like, you know, he wasn't doing anything bad. He was just like, he wants to hang out and make friends. But yeah, he got into some trouble. And I actually had to say like, oh, look, he's not he didn't mean any harm by it. He's just, you know.

37:52

You brought up a good point because I remember even being told by a fortune teller once that for me, it's like being an alien.

38:00

Yeah, we're, we're different. We're very, very different.

38:06

Very different. So another crazy idea, I want to play devil's advocate. Is there any part of cybersecurity and hacking where you would not recommend it for for people?

38:20

I would not?

38:21

Yep. Are there any any types of personalities that people or situations where you would not recommend that that type of career?

38:29

Look, you know, people if, if people want to search for careers based on number one personality, and number two on what they like to do, and number three, how to, like, you know, a boss or company. It's like, they're all different, right? Yes. So if you want to pick a career in cybersecurity, that matches like your, your, I'm sorry, your personality and your interests. Then like, like, line that up on what you like, kind of thing. So let's just say, I'm not a very social person. So I'll try to do bug bounties. Right? I try to hack web applications, that's perfect for me, but it's not good for an extroverted person. You get what I'm saying?

39:15

Yes, that's a good point. Extroverted people probably wouldn't like that.

39:20

Yeah. Or an extroverted person would be more of an influence, like cyber security influencer. on LinkedIn, LinkedIn or something. So it's like it's like a different thing. Like, if you're, like, you want to play detective, do.

39:35

You can do forensics, digital forensics. All right. If you're into law and policies and you're writing, you're like a lit major back in the day, go for risk and compliance. It's like a diversity of, of different jobs. But it's funny too, because you're gonna see the same type of person on each and every one of them. Which is why like if you're trying to, trying to artificially put different people in there, I don't know how things are gonna work out so well.

40:14

And by the way, since there are not too many women hackers out there, how do you feel about your friends who are also women hackers like do you feel that women in cybersecurity that many of them can do the job? Because the perception some men will have, things things like oh, in order to get in, you need to start at thebottom or you gotta up your game and gotta have all these crazy certs. But how do you feel based on like your your experience and experience of your friends who are lady hackers? Do tthey feel? Do they feel it's hard? It's really hard for them? Or do they know their stuff? And do it well?

40:58

You know what? When I started work, I thought, all the guys were great. I haven't really seen like, any jerky guys like she's chick and all that. But I have seen other girls start sh*t with like, a girl that's trying to get into cyber. It that's, that's interesting, right? Like, I had no idea. I think I saw it once. And then I asked this other girl and one of my co workers like, yeah, you know, like, I have gotten. I have gotten like, times where like, no one took me seriously because I'm a girl. And then you know, sometimes like I would have to call to notify, like a vendor if they've been compromised or something like that. I've gotten like, I've gotten responses. It's interesting guys, like, believe me, you know, like the guys would believe me. But then the girls would be like, yeah, there's no way you're in like into security.

42:08

Interesting.

42:09

They hang up on me.

42:11

Wow, that's interesting. Because usually the typical, I say, norm I hear is like, the opposite.

42:18

Yeah, no, I don't know, though. I mean, I, I guess so. I guess like I I'll be honest, I believe it's there. But um, I haven't really experienced it. And if I did, I would have been like, you know what? F*ck off. I I'm not scared to tell a dude to like, EFF off. I think I'm more scared of telling a girl to eff off.

42:41

Interesting. Yeah.

42:43

Yeah, girls are vicious man.

42:45

You know, you've got a very interesting point. Because in the cyber field, there are a lot of gender discrimination. And some people they feel that, well, we'll just create women only groups and women will feel safe, but how do you feel about that?

43:00

You know what, I feel like some of those women, the reason why they they act that way towards me is like, there's two there's two reasons, okay? If they're not in cyber, they're just like, oh, there's no chicks in cyber, that's the non cyber women. And number two, I think like some of the cyber women are just like, oh, you're just a number. You're a diversity hire. I hate that, that that really helped my imposter syndrome. Like it makes it worse. That's all I'm saying. It's it makes it much, much worse. But you're saying something about women only groups?

43:33

Yep. Because sometimes some women feel that if there are no men involved, it's safe. If it's just a group of gals, then everything's good. How do you feel?

43:44

So it's like a sorority, okay. Um, uh, okay. That's like a paradox. You know, paradox is something that conflicts one another and what not. So, it's interesting that they want diversity.

43:59

Yeah. Yeah, it's the irony of it all.

44:04

Yeah, no,

44:06

I don't know. I feel like it's better to, to encourage an atmosphere an environment in which both men and women can work together.

44:17

I agree.

44:18

And if someone disagrees, right, here's the thing that like, really bothers me about the current, like, environment, current. Like everything right now, is that if a guy speaks up or girl speaks up, and like, you know, has like a valid argument against it, right? They face ridicule, and there's no like, there's no like, hey, let's meet in the, in the middle or like, hey, let's convince this person. Like, let's try to use our reasoning and our persuasion to, you know, help this person see, from our perspective. There was none of that. Whenever I go on, you know, LinkedIn or something, I don't see any of that and I don't see that like, in at work because you know. You're afraid of getting fired? Like the, the company made it clear that they want it this way. Right? So like, yeah, like. I don't know, I, I understand why there's like women only groups. But at the same time, it's like, not all guys are out there to tell them they can't do it. Right there are guys out there that are good. They'll try to help you like women's rights wouldn't have happened if like, you know, it was all just women, right? There has to be some good men too. That believe the same so i don't know i i get it. But it's it's executed very poorly. If I must say.

45:43

Yep. Yeah. Because for me personally, I I believe that for a lot of gals. They can be whoever they want to be. We just got to gather way and give them the choice.

45:53

Yep. Yeah, you got to encourage them don't. I mean? There's different people, right. There's, there's people that would do it, even though they're told they can't. Those are like, honestly, that's like the way to go. There's people that you know, get discouraged easily and it's groups all women groups. Yeah. Okay, cool. Like, that's what they're there for, to always encourage them. But remember, sometimes encouragement isn't always there. Right?

46:24

Yes. Yes. Sadly true.

46:26

Come from you. Yeah. Yeah. From from internal.

46:29

Yeah. Okay. And we're about out of time. But last question. Besides cybersecurity and hacking, hacking, what else are you passionate about?

46:39

I like a lot of things, man. Um, I, I've gotten into like antique book collecting recently. And I'm really into, like, collecting, you're gonna find this weird. But I read books on like, psychological warfare.

47:01

That's actually quite cool.

47:03

Yeah. I mean, think of like cybersecurity is like, there's some social engineering, so they call it to design. Yeah. Yeah, I got into that. Try to learn different languages. And if you understand someone's your enemy, right, or someone else's culture, then you'll be like, Ah, this is how they operate.

47:22

Yes.

47:23

You'll understand them more. Yeah.

47:25

Okay. And we're out of time. And so thank you, Casey, for joining today. And I really appreciate all your insights.

47:33

Yeah, no problem, man. Thanks for having me.

47:35

Okay. Thank you.