Neurodiversity in Cybersecurity - Cat Contillo

0:03

Hi, welcome to the NeuroSec podcast where we unite people and organizations to support and advance Neurodiverse people in cybersecurity and beyond to make the world more diverse and inclusive. My name is Nathan Chung and today my special guest is Cat Contillo, Threat Operations Analyst at Huntress, welcome Cat.

0:22

Thank you.

0:24

So is Huntress your first job working in Cybersecurity and what was it like when you first got the job and what do you do there?

0:32

Yes, so Huntress is my first job in Cybersecurity, but it is also my first job ever. I've dreamed of like getting my first paycheck since I was like 15 years old. And it took another 15 years, I got my job. I was like 30 years old and something I'm very proud of, because I worked very hard to get that job, or just a job in general, you know. And so I started a Huntress. It was a 90 day internship. And after that, I was then offered a full time position there. When I got the job, it was a little nerve wracking. As again, like I said before, it was my first job. But after a while, it was nice to have a routine. It was, it was really overwhelming to learn everything and it took me a lot longer as would as like a normal person, I guess. Or I guess, like an average person that works there. It did take me a lot longer, which I was glad that they didn't get upset by that and they still wanted to keep me there and they even asked me for a full time position, which I felt I was like, alright I'm doing something right and at Huntress. So yes, I am a Threat Operations Analyst. I also recently started training new trainees. So that has been like kind of like, I feel like a next step. So my manager thought that I was able to fully explain well about what I do and everything like that. So she was like, do you want to start training new trainees that we hire? And I said, absolutely. I also started to create documentation for our department that can better help future analysts. So after Maybe someone's done training, or even during training, if they had a question, they can look back at the documentation and be like, oh that's the answer. That's what I need to do. But specifically, at my job as an analyst, I report like malicious items, like potentially unwanted programs like adware. Well, while it's not malicious, it's something that you don't want on your computer and also malware and ransomware to do a lot of investigations that lead me to do some malware analysis, which is really fun. So I do static and dynamic analysis. But usually, I start with like checking out Virustotal on a file, and and then maybe I'll take it to my virtual machine and be like, so is this really bad?

3:12

Wow, so exciting.

3:14

Yeah. And if I can't do anything further than that, like if I had really have no idea what it is, I do have people I can reach out to and be like, hey, can you take a look at this?

3:23

Yep. And feel being able to detect Cybersecurity threats today is just so crucial. That is so awesome.

3:31

Yes. So thank you.

3:32

What do you love most about your job?

3:36

This is a really good question. So if you had asked me when I first started, I probably just say, like the continuing learning which even to this day, I learned something new almost every day, or at least every week and I really love to learn. So when I get to learn something new, it's really exciting. Recently, though, I will say, I started to understand more about like PowerShell code language, because I didn't really know much about that when I first started, it would have been really helpful. But now that I know a little bit more, I really like to break down obfuscated code and see what it's doing. And it's like layers of an onion. So I get really excited. And then I get kind of sad when I get to a part where I'm like, oh, this is the code I don't understand. But we do have some people that work at Huntress that I can like send the code over and if they have time, they can actually break it down with me, which is really exciting. I think specifically about my job. I just, I don't know, I like really I thrive at, I just thrive there. I just, I love everything that I do and I think maybe just finding ransomware, I okay, yes, finding ransomware is like the most exciting it's like a mini party I throw myself is, especially if I find it like when I'm hunting. So we do this thing called hunting, and you look at new auto runs that come through, maybe they changed a binary, maybe the file change or something very subtle like that. And if I click on one, and you know, I put it into my VM, and it's, it's ransomware, I get really excited. So that's probably the most thing. The one thing I love about my job the most would be just finding something that, you know, may not look like malware or ransomware, but actually is.

5:38

Great. Starting from the beginning, when you interviewed at Huntress, what was it like? Because often times, for Autistic people, interviews can be a nightmare. So what was it like when you interviewed?

5:51

So as you know, this is my first job. I never had a job. I never did an interview before this. But my interview was non formal. It was with the Vice President of Threat Ops, who's also one of the three co-founders of the company and my friend, Micah, who's now my manager, but she's the reason why I even applied or, you know, did the interview. She believed in my abilities to do the job and she thought it would be a perfect fit. So if it wasn't for her, and my fiance, Tracy, I probably would never have even done the interview, let alone applied for the job. But the interview was more it was on Zoom. And it was just very informal was just a couple questions that they wanted to make sure that I had, like, at least a foundational understanding of Windows operations systems, which I did. There were some questions I didn't have the answer on. So I got really nervous. And I was like, oh, my goodness, I'm gonna fail this interview. But overall, it was just non formal, and I knew that it was leading me to a pay like a paid internship. So it wasn't a job per se. So I feel like I had like a little leeway, but it was still very, very, like overwhelming.

7:11

I know that feeling too. Overall, Cybersecurity is often described as a great field to work in for people who are Autistic. Based on your experience, how do you feel? Do you feel like it's a great match?

7:26

Yes, um, the the most basic of the answer would be yes, I believe 100%. Of course, there's multiple different career paths in Cybersecurity. And I don't have, you know, much expertise on a lot of those. But I believe it's a great field for Autistic and Neuro by dirt, dirt, oh, my goodness, Neurodiverse people to work in. Just like any other career out there, it's really based on the Autistic person, right? So if they don't have an interest in computers or malware, they're probably not going to do so well.

8:02

Yeah, that's true.

8:03

But in terms of like, what I do, I think it would just like, as an umbrella term would be like a Threat Hunter. And I think being a Threat Hunter would be an excellent, like job for someone who's autistic. Because just for me, you really need to know the details. Like you have to be very detail oriented, whether it's a larger picture and a little mixture of like just the really small details to know like, maybe like malware that hides in, I think it's svchost.exe, maybe the C is missing, or maybe the H is missing. And so you need to be able to really figure that out and look at that and see those clues. For me, I'm a very detail oriented person. So I can see that what's missing, and point it out be like, oh, that's, you know, that's definitely something bad. Also, my job is very routine oriented. I get to pick, they're very flexible on time. So like, I get to pick my time, what works for me, and that helps me too as like, an Autistic person, because I have like this timeframe I like to work on, and then I have the same time ago to take my break. So having that I think, of course that's probably based on each company, but having that aspect is really, I think, helpful. And then I'd also say the idea to think outside the box, not not in a, in a, like a crazy sort of way but just to be able to take our ideas and our thoughts. I have ones that are different than other people, right. So I see the world differently, just like any other Autistic person that we see the world differently than people that are Neurotypical and I think that really would help in Cybersecurity as well.

9:59

Absolutely. You hit upon another important topic, because accommodations and support from employers are often very essential for Autistic workers. But sadly, sometimes people don't even know what those are or what, what what are available to them. Or, quite frankly, some are not even comfortable to evn ask for accommodations. Have you ever asked for accommodations? And if so, what was it like?

10:25

So I've had accommodations all my life, since I was in special education, so all of my childhood, I had accommodations. And then in college, I had accommodations too like, for test taking, I needed extra time, because I can't read the question and then process what I'm saying in a very quick, timely manner, I need that time I need to read it out loud and be able to process it. So I was like, really nervous about getting this job. And at the time, they were a startup company, so they didn't even have like HR. So I was like, who do I ask for this question? So we've finally becoming a much bigger company and we got HR and I was just like, ah, so I know, we have these like meetings for our company. It's brand new information all happens at once. And like this hour, I was like, I can't, I can't grasp the information. I can't follow along. When I leave, I have no idea what was talked about. And it made me feel like isolated, right? Like, I wasn't included, because well everyone else got the information, but I didn't. So I just reached out and I said hey, can we do something like closed captions or something with like a transcript? Right? So I was just like, I don't know what options there are. So yes, I do have accommodations here at Huntress. They have so kindly. We tested out VITAC, it's a closed captions, they do it live, we have a person there. Yeah, they have a person there who just types up everything that somebody says, of course, it's human, and they can't type as fast as most people can talk, especially our CEO, Kyle, he talks like a mile a minute. And so it's pretty cool to see it. But you know, they have maybe a 95% of what what's being said, and I can read that at in real time. So if I had like a question in real time, I could ask it.

12:30

That's incredible.

12:31

Yeah. And then I can go back and they have a transcript that I can print out and look and read and maybe like, oh, okay, I missed that point on. And let me make sure to ask somebody about that. I'm also testing out this product called Otter.ai. It's, it's, it's like a transcript in real time, too. And it takes word for word, but there's no real person.

12:53

Ah, cool.

12:54

So I've been attempting to use that more like, you know, those random, like, maybe if I, my manager, like randomly said on Tuesday, oh, can we have a meeting at one? I'm like, oh, I don't have somebody for that right? I could use otter for that. And then the last accommodation, I will, I think is really great thing to say, especially if anyone who's listening might benefit from it. They bought me Helperbird. It's typically for people that are Dyslexic. It's a toolbar that goes right on to your like a Google Chrome or something. And it helps me be able to read the words better.

13:06

Oh, I never heard that before that. That sounds crucial for some people.

13:39

Yeah. I mean, it's not just for Dyslexia, like, it could change the font on something right to a different font that maybe is easier to read than what is provided, it could change like an overlay, maybe make something a little bit brighter, a little darker. And sometimes it even reads it to you. So well, if I'm, if I'm having a day, that's just way too overwhelming, and reading it, reading the words, it's just like too much for me. I do benefit from like something reading to me, and then also reading it as well. And it has that ability. So yeah, those are the three, three accommodations I have right now. And it really helps me.

14:16

That is totally awesome. Next question ,throughout your life, what has been your greatest challenges and how did you overcome them?

14:26

So you'd like challenges, greatest challenges, like there's a lot of challenges, right? I know, if I think back, the constant challenge would be humans, humans that don't understand, that aren't empathetic to people who are different than them. Who might be you know, say I'm stimming right. So I'm just so overwhelmed or I just, you know, I just need to calm down and I'm stimming. I get stares from people or the judgmental of, you know, you could hear someone talking to somebody saying something really nasty about me. Or just even bullies in general, right. So like, in high school, I was constantly bullied for being the weird kid. It's just constantly humans who just are either judgmental, closed minded, or maybe like, like, even in the topic of like diversity and inclusion, like the, the topic of that is like, you have your circle, right? So you're gonna have biases towards people that are not in your circle. So maybe in their circle, they don't know someone who's autistic. Maybe they've never met somebody who's autistic. So they're gonna look at us, you know, like, what are what are they doing? Why are they acting like that? Or why aren't they responding to me fast enough, like, like, stuff like that. And it's constantly humans. And what I've realized is that I can't change anybody. I can't change myself. And I don't want to, there's nothing wrong with me. But I can be an advocate, which is something I've been doing, and I even, I even talk to people who might not even want to in that moment, but if they don't have that person, right, so they've never met an autistic person before, maybe I could be that person that opens up their mind. So I've started to just try to make a conversation even though it's really awkward and uncomfortable, especially if I'm like upset or something. But I'm in a situation where I feel safe, and I'm not as overwhelmed. I will make a conversation about it.

16:33

And you made a really good point because one of the hardest parts for people who are Autistic is feeling like an alien in the world that's not accepting because at the end of the day it's just being different and people are just, a lot of people just cannot accept the differences. This leads to many people to wear to essentially wear a mask in order to fit in, because they just want to be socially acceptable. For me, I liken it to essentially is kind of like running software virtualization as VMware, eventually, we do crash. So because of this a lot of people who are Autistic often do not even disclose their, their neurodiverse conditions out of fear. So what what led you to be openly Autistic and open about it, on your condition and everything.

17:26

So the first thing I wanted to point is like what you said about being an alien, which is true. When I was younger, before I was diagnosed Autistic. I tell people, I was from planet Zeebo. I don't think I knew I was different than everybody else. And people, especially bullies would always bully me for things I just didn't understand. Like, why do I do that? or Why? Why do other people not do that, but I do that? And I knew that I had learning disabilities when I was younger. So I knew like I had Central Auditory Processing Disorder and other different learning disabilities. So I had like that general understanding of why I did certain things or didn't do certain things. But there was other aspects where I was just like, nobody else does this, like I don't understand, or no one else responds this way. Or maybe, you know, my processing might be a lot slower, or I get more overwhelmed, you know, easily than other people. And why can't I understand the joke, right? So I'm just like, okay, I'm missing something. Like, even something as simple as you know, being a female. I didn't understand like, the idea of a bra or deodorant, right. And those are like things that like neurotypical kids just automatically know. And I never understood that because nobody ever taught me that sort of ordeal. But after you know, being diagnosed Autistic, yeah, I still feel like an alien. I mean, they're, you know, to one extent or another, but I don't feel as, as alone, because there's Autism community, right and I'm a big part of that. And that makes me feel less alone, knowing that there's other people out there like me.

19:16

Yes absolutely.

19:21

So I get the idea of crashing. Right. So like, as you said, right, you crash you try to fit in, you mask yourself to try to be somewhat like with everybody else. And there's a time when my fiance before she graduated from college, her college had a party, something like a dance and a buffet. And I was like, I want to go I want to go and I knew there was going to be loud music and a lot of conversations with people and then the idea that I'd have to, one pretend I'm interested which is really hard, and two I have noise sensitivities. I don't do well with loud music, and I did too much all together and I, I shut down, I ran outside and I just lost it. I cried, I couldn't be touched. I couldn't talk. And I just crashed. And I said, you know what, there's nothing wrong with me. And it's okay that I can't fit in at this moment of time where I can't do these certain things. That's okay. But it was that moment in time where I was like, wow, I really like I put on a mask, and I tried my best and it just ruined me, and it didn't feel good. So going to your question to what, you know, led me to like, be openly Autistic. So I think going back to when I was diagnosed Autistic would be the most important aspect to bring up here. So I was about 18, 17 years old, in high school, and I was dealing with a lot like, I just honestly didn't want to be alive anymore. I couldn't stand people bullying me and making fun of me. And I couldn't understand why. Right? So I was just, I was just really thriving on I just need to understand why like, why, why am I the way I am? I get I'm a different, different operating system. I understand that like, I do, I do get it. But like, why, you know, and so I was I went in and out of psych hospitals during this time. And it was, to think back, it was what I needed at that moment in time. And it led me to the most amazing psychiatrist who was Autistic herself. And she was like, you're Autistic. And I thought, I'm what, I've never heard of that before. I went home, I learned all about it. About me, I'm autistic, I was like, oh my gosh, this, this lit up my world, it gave me a purpose. And then I understood why I was the way I was. I'm getting a little teary eyed now just thinking about it. But I said, you know what, there's nothing wrong with me and I'm proud to be me, and anyone who has got a problem with it, I don't need them in my life, or, or maybe they need to be educated. That's kind of where I was. So I really was like, you know, what, I'm going to advocate for myself, as well as other Autistic people. And I'm going to, I'm not going to be ashamed. And I even got a tattoo based on what Autism is to me. And it's a brain in the lab with computer pieces and connected together in a brain and it's got rainbow colors, which is for the Neurodiversity, like a spectrum. And so I like that, because it's a conversation starter. So I could be like, oh, so have you heard of Autism before? Do you want to know more about it? And yeah, so I think what led me to being openly Autistic was the fact of being so low down and not understanding myself. And Autism is me, like, I'm Autistic. And there's nothing wrong with that. And it will, it'll help you right, and it will help our listeners and to help everybody else in the world who I meet. Understand me better if, if I can just be free to be me.

23:19

Yes, I love it. Because one of the greatest struggles for people with Autism is finding that peace finding acceptance of self, because we live in a society which it kind of like bullies and forces you to either be normal or you're an outcast. And a lot of people struggle with that. But I love your story, because it emphasizes even more, it starts with self that you got to accept yourself, you're not broken. I really love your story.

23:51

Thank you.

23:51

And that's a message that really needs to be resonated because even for myself, I went through a lot of the same things you went through and for a long time, I never really accepted myself being Autistic. So I think I can really resonate with your, your struggles. And for our last question, for people out there who are struggling with self acceptance and trying to fit into this world, what message do you have for them?

24:21

It's a really good question. Um, I would say there's nothing wrong with you, right? And don't let the world or anybody in your life or you know, even a stranger, make you think that you you are broken or you need to fit a specific way to be, you know, a part of this world you don't. You have a whole community or even if you are not Autistic, right, you you still have a Neurodiversity community of people out there who might be dealing with the same thing you're dealing with, and I know it's great to have that connection and have that community of people. But also, knowing who you are, right and your differences and, and even your struggles. It's okay. And you can give somebody an understanding like being autistic, right? I could say, you know what, this is the way I am, right? So I might not get your sarcastic jokes sometimes. But I can, we can still have a great time and there's a lot of humor. I'm, I can be a very funny person and we can still have fun. But, you know, understand that about me. Or I don't do well in loud places, or like grocery stores. I have to wear these customized earpieces. So the world isn't so loud for me. And you know what, there's nothing wrong with that, because then I'm allowed. Or I can put myself in a position to go into a grocery store, and be able to shop for groceries. And while I put earbuds into my ears doesn't make me any less of a human than you. I would, I would just, you know, be proud. I know, it's really hard, but there's only one you and you don't have that there's no puzzle piece here. There's no no way for you to fit in, you do what makes you happy. And what makes you be able to go to bed at night and sleep, right. So if you did something that was so hard, and it caused a lot of overwhelming feeling, it's gonna be hard to go to bed. But if you do something that you're certain, and you go, and you have a great day, and it makes you happy, and everything that you did, you can put your head to bed at night and go to bed. I feel like that's like my motto, I guess. I have morals. So like, I'm a really good person. And I would never be mean to another person, right. But I would always stand up for somebody who's who's being bullied by somebody else would be like, leave them alone. And if I didn't do that, I'd come back at home. And I would like, obsessively think about it. And it would make me feel really bad and really sad as a person because that I didn't do that. So I feel like pulling that in to self acceptance is just, you're gonna find those people who still love you for who you are, for who you are, and that you don't have to be anything different. It does, it might take some time, like it took me, I never thought I was going to be engaged, right? I never thought I was going to find someone who's gonna love me for who I am. And on our first date, I told her I'm autistic and if you have a problem with it, then this is not going to work out. And she was like, she just said, okay, I want to understand you better. And because at that point in time I understood my Autism and how it affected me and you know, what challenges I had, and I was able to discuss that with her. And now she understands, okay, you know, I get I get that. And I don't have to pretend to be anything. So once you find those people, I feel like it makes it easier to to also find that self acceptance, but don't lean on other people to find that. That that would be a number one thing because it might take you some time but you you are who you are you you were created exactly what you are right. Don't change that. There's nothing wrong with that. And I do hope that anyone who's listening, who's struggling with self acceptance, and feeling like they cannot fit into the world. I hope you do find it. And if you need someone to talk to, I'm always here.

28:54

That's an incredible story. And thank you for sharing because a lot of people who are Autistic often struggle with relationships, but your story is incredible. It show yes, you can be Autistic. Yes, you can find someone who loves you. That's very powerful. Thank you for sharing that.

29:11

You're welcome.

29:11

Thank you for having me.

29:13

Yep, yep. We're out of time. And thank you, Cat. Have a great day.

29:17

Thank you. You too.